I've been watching the Anglican forum for a while: on and off for years, as I now realise, and am concerned that the point of the position, referred to in some ignorance, I think, as YEC (young earth creationist), but more accurately described as 'no death before the fall salvationist', completely escapes the antagonists on the forum.
More on the antagonistic sneering at another time, but firstly the point of it all, misunderstanding of which might be the leading cause of the former problem observed.
One presumes, as a Christian, that the Holy Spirit had some point in conveying information verbally to us in the scripture. Indeed, Paul tells Timothy in 2 Ti 3:16-17 that "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.". I presume that it follows that the scripture must have some real content to further this purpose. Some on the Anglican forum have referred to 'genre' criticism (do I smell the sent of Formgeschichte seeping into evangelical biblical studies?), without making any point as to where this should lead us. Needless to say, hurling air-filled elephants is no way to advance a discussion, particularly when it is done to so obviously beg the question.
The connection has to be made between form (genre, if you like) and function: which in literature is rarely perfectly unambiguous, but the argument must be mounted as to the form of the passage in question and why it might produce conclusions as to function. So what in the text of Genesis 1 and 2 suggests that it should not be taken as factual? Barr, Von Rad, Simpson (in the Interpreter's Bible), Calvin, Luther, Gunkel, and I'm sure others who don't spring to mind, take it that the author meant to make factual communication. We come closer to this debate, and I think Pattle Pun of Wheaton College says it all: 'but for the hermeneutical considerations suggested by modern science . . .' He would agree that the author,s intention was to communicate the direct information as it sits on the face of the text. But he equivocates.
It is not 'modern science' that would lead to a challenging the facticity of Genesis 1 and 2, it is modern naturalism: a philosophical, if not religious position; the dominant religious framework of belief of the modern mind, I daresay. This view denies that there is anything beyond the observable now; but which to make this position has to rely on unexplicated metaphysical considerations: it is, I think, an elaborate attempt to blunt the self refuting starting point of positivism. It works for many because to deny the supernatural is spiritually convenient, as the Bible does tell us.
Particularly ironic is that modern experimental science grew to potency on the philosophy strength of a creator having provided this world: the early modern scientists were encouraged in their studies by a firm belief in a recently and magnificently wisely created cosmos. It is the lack of this belief that will destroy science, not bring its furtherance.
Now, why make a song and dance about the facticity of Genesis 1 and 2? Well, if nothing else, it relates to the pursuit of truth: what does the Spirit seek to teach us in this passage? It appears that he seeks to teach us facts, and facts which are important for us to know; indeed, facts which are required to make any sense out of the passage. Yet I've read many authors who seem to be under the same influences as Pun who want to say that Genesis does not mean what it says, but that it means something else, which nevertheless has the same import for its theology as what it seems to say: this is reminiscent of a line from Little Britain: "yes, but, no, but, yes, but, no, but . . . " and little different from Aboriginal dreamtime stories: they didn’t happen, but we like to play with the thought that maybe, just maybe they somehow did: in dreamland.
An example of this is the pap taught at Moore, I think it was by a now past staff member (Perry Wiles), or even by Lord Archbishop Jensen (Matt 23: 6,7) himself, that Genesis serves as a polemic against other ANE cosmogonies. However, if not true, not accurate to events, then not really much of a polemic, more an empty clanging: and the hearers of the day would have gotten a chuckle out of it then, as now.
And that winds me around to the point of the issue for evangelistic and apologetic purposes. The dominant religious view today is naturalism. Clouser points out in the ‘Myth of Religious Neutrality’ that there is no religiously neutral position: everyone entertains basic beliefs, beliefs about what is ontologically independent. If not theistic, then by default, naturalist, in broad terms, and to begin taking Christ to those whose first premise does not admit him; we have to undo their first premise. Leaving aside all debate, if it were shown that the world is only 6000 years old (check a Jewish calendar for the accurate period), that life could not happen by any observable process, that differentiation of life and its interconnectedness belies stochastic process, then the first premise collapses in a puff of smoke. And the word of God comes in with a replacement.
Obscure? No, this is the very chain of reasoning that Paul took to pagans: Acts 17 contains the paradigmatic sermon: you start your evangelism on common ground to lead the person to sacred ground.
Does this 'work'. Well, I must say, starting from the real world it is as easy as anything to get to a spiritual discussion: naturalism is all around us and so easily brought up in conversation. I recall conversations as disparate as a discussion with a PhD biologist at work, with a Master's student looking at wetland ecology, with new agers who think all sorts of weird and wonderful things. It comes up with my children's teachers doing a unit on dinosaurs, or a unit on the solar system, and so on, and it is so easy, so gentle and leads the other to ask questions. Try brick batting the same people with the four spiritual laws, or Phil Jensen’s, 10 steps to Anglicanism, or whatever intellectual knuckle dusting he uses, and see the difference.
Then I compare a prayer letter from a 'creationist' organisation: it is replete with news of people turning to Christ because they can see they can trust the Bible, is at last congruent with the real world, and not an 'upper storey' fictionalised religious experience, it shows them a saviour in their here and now, it undoes the barrier of naturalism and the pretence that science underpins this worldview which starts with denial that God is there, let alone him having spoken. I look at Anglican media, and I see theory and technique and approaches and wishful thinking, I don't see the results that I see when the Bible is connected to people's questions: humbly, in detail, and in appreciation of a shared time-space event field.
Now how widespread is the worldview against God? One example I can give is the weekly Financial Review 'review' magazine. Every couple of weeks or so there is a major article, or a few, on an aspect of naturalism, materialism, unabashed Darwinism or another aspect of evolutionary dogma, which carries the not so implicit message that the world of the spirit is sub-rational, and to be spurned. This thinking is the warp and woof of our day. Equipping Christians to deal with it is vital to the progress of the gospel, in my estimation and experience. The Anglican Church equips us to succumb to materialism and stymie the gospel. Christians such as those in Creation Ministries International work hard to do the job the Anglicans have spurned.
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I look at Anglican media, and I see theory and technique and approaches and wishful thinking, I don't see the results that I see when the Bible is connected to people's questions: humbly, in detail, and in appreciation of a shared time-space event field.
Really, you must not look at the same website as me. Coz when I read through the various articles on the SydAng website, I read a whole lot of stories of people who are making a difference on the coal-face of ministry. I read stories of people who have come to know and obey Christ in a deeper and more meaningful way through the ministries of Sydney Anglican churches. I read articles written by people who are going through the trials and tribulations of parish work and have come up with ideas that have helped in their situation.
You must not have experienced the amazing work of AFES in Perth (which is where I live), who is hugely influenced by the SydAng diocese, whose ministry has resulted me remaining firm in the grace of Christ, found at the cross, and growing in that grace to maturity in Him.
See, you must be reading the newsletters of the Melbourne or Perth Anglican dioceses and seeing their actual abandonment of the gospel. Maybe if you got off your high horse and stopped inspecting the inside of your rectum and actually had a look around at the reality of the ministry of the Sydney Anglican diocese, you would see the real picture.
Leaving aside all debate, if it were shown that the world is only 6000 years old (check a Jewish calendar for the accurate period), that life could not happen by any observable process, that differentiation of life and its interconnectedness belies stochastic process, then the first premise collapses in a puff of smoke. And the word of God comes in with a replacement.
The intellectual defeat of evolution means very little since sin isn't an intellectual problem but a moral and spiritual one. If evolution were to be shown to be false, the world wouldn't be overwhelmed with a desire to become Christian. There were non-Christians before evolution and there will be non-Christians long after evolution is gone (if it ever goes).
Also, there are numerous other creation accounts that people could cling to. Christianity isn't the only religion claiming to have an explanation of the origins of the world. The defeat of evolution isn't tantamount to a win for biblical Christianity.
The only real solution is the gospel, which can be received even if people hold to evolution. It is faith in Christ that saves, not faith in Christ plus an understanding of YECS.
Lee,
So what you are saying is that it doesn't matter what one believes about God, as long as you believe Jesus saves, then everything is OK? So you can believe absolute nonsense about God, indeed, complete lies about Him, and that's OK? What sort of saving faith is that? It sounds pretty vacuous.
John
Lee my experience is different than yours. I endeavour to share my faith/preach the Gospel whenever & wherever I get the God given chance. I have often asked those who have ignored or rejected what I have said a simple question-- Why?- & the common simple answer is they believe the Bible has been disproved by science in some way. People don't just front up with this you have to do a little seeking to get to the bottom of their rejection/ disinterest.
Recently I was with a couple & when they discovered I was a Christian he asked- Don't you believe in Darwin?- looking puzzled. And a worthwhile discussion including the Gospel followed. Seed planted I pray. No one is instantly converted by accepting there must be a creator but it(from long experience)is a solid start in the right direction. Conversely I have listened to theistic evolutionists sharing with atheists & heard the atheist say something like-- what a load of c**p I believe in evolution & evolution has done away with god.
So if there is no God who is Jesus? Just some misguided guru.
There is no one-size-fits-all evangelism tool but I have been involved in the salvation of many who have come to a living, saving faith in our Lord Jesus by what is often called creation evangelism. I preach in France each year & the situation is even more so like this there.
You are absolutely right sin is the problem & surely sin is what Adam & Eve actually historically did in the garden. However our western world is so soaked in humanism/evolutionism that starting at the NT part of the Gospel provides no foundation. It is starting towards the end of the story & every novel has to be read from page one if you want to understand what it is all about.
A good example of creation evangelism is to contrast Peter as recorded in Acts Ch.2 with Paul in Athens in Ch.17. Peter speaks to people soaked in Scripture so he basically says --God sent His messiah & you killed Him, what are you going to do about it? And thousands were saved that day. They had a hebrew 'Biblical' mindset & his words hit them hard and they asked -what shall we do- Peter said repent & be baptized & they were. And praise God for that. I look forward to meeting them in heaven. What a day!
Paul speaks to the Athenians a people definitely not steeped in God's revelation & they said he was a few ants short of a picnic. Go the verse 22 when Paul gets a second chance & he goes straight to creation. Why, to show that his God is 'Ho Theos' The God, The Creator, not one of their numerous puny 'theos'- gods. What was he doing? Obviously setting our God apart,The God, The Creator, The redeemer & what was their responce, they said they wanted to hear more. He got their attention and the rest is history.
In the 50's this was a country steeped in Scripture-not all were Christian of course- but they knew the story & evolution was just something egg-heads talked about. We were not taught it like today when it begins in Kindergarten. Billy Graham came & preached a Peter style message and 10's of thousands came forward. We have never seem anything like it since-it just doesn't happen today as our society has been very effectively indoctrinated in humanism. We need to reach Australians, especially the younger ones in a way more like Paul. It's about world-view.
Sure many non-believers have some concept of god or God one more akin to Hollywood than Calvary & it does not come along with a real God, who really created, & a real Adam & Eve who really sinned, & a real creator who really came & really died & really rose again that you & I may really be forgiven & go to be with a real God in a real heaven. No theirs is a warm & fuzzy God who does not oppose any of their other superstitious beliefs or evolutionary world views. Start to talk about The real God & you will find their god is no more like the real God than Allah. I have shown these people the evidence which gives credence to the God of the Bible, & the evidence which shows their evolutionary beliefs are no more than misplaced faith. I have seen many converted by this method. Of course we convert no one by our 'brilliance' but many are searching for truth & God will lead them to us & us to them if we pray.
Regards,
Warwick
John,
I didn't say that you can believe anything you want as long as it contains 'Jesus saves'. I said in previous posts that you can believe in evolution and still be a Christian, even if you believe it is somewhat philosophically inconsistent.
Believing in evolution is no boundary to becoming a Christian. Evolution is an intellectual problem, sin is a moral and spiritual one. People believe all sorts of inconsistent things (like denying the sovereignty of God in salvation but still praying for people to be saved), it doesn't mean they aren't Christian, it means they aren't consistent.
Warwick,
You can teach creation with giving people a YECS critique of evolution. For some, some discussion on science and the Bible might be helpful but even then, I don't think a critique of evolution from a YECS position isn't good. Science is rarely completely conclusive and neither YECS or evolutionists can claim they have all the evidence to completely back their presuppositions.
Ultimately, the Holy Spirit cuts through the blindness caused by sin. A hostility to God based on evolution is not an intellectual problem but a spiritual one and only the Spirit can deal with that. What we really need is to hear Jesus' atoning death on the cross not an critique on evolution.
Lee said,
I didn't say that you can believe anything you want as long as it contains 'Jesus saves'. I said in previous posts that you can believe in evolution and still be a Christian, even if you believe it is somewhat philosophically inconsistent.
Believing in evolution is no boundary to becoming a Christian. Evolution is an intellectual problem, sin is a moral and spiritual one. People believe all sorts of inconsistent things (like denying the sovereignty of God in salvation but still praying for people to be saved), it doesn't mean they aren't Christian, it means they aren't consistent.
Lee,
I agree, Lee, one can become a Christian while still affirming evolution - I was one of them. However, it always troubled me that the first part of the Bible didn't accord with what "science" said happened.
If evolution is false, then this stumbling block should be removed so that people who have evolution as their intellectual defence against God can take their first step toward Him.
Young earth creationists never argue that this debate is a one-size-fits-all answer to the whole question of being born again; what we are saying is that, particularly in today's world, there are many, many people who reason evolution does away with the need of God.
Now I think that a perfectly rational statement. The Sydney Diocese, because they believe that God could have used evolution [Peter Jensen believes that God did!], and trying to fit everyone into their own image, don't engage with these pagans on this issue, the very issue they, the pagans, say stops them from believing in God.
The wonder of Christ was that he got alongside the lost and really listened to them. I want to take every person for what they are and if a man tells me that intellectually he can't believe in God because evolution is true (and I know evolution to be false), then I have to rescue that man at the stumbling block he falls over, not where I deem him to be. This is why Paul, in preaching to the Athenians, began with Genesis 1.
Furthermore, I've heard pagans say that they would not, cannot, believe in a God who creates by using death, as evolutionary theory decrees. Jesus died in order to save the unfit; evolution says that the weak must die off for the strong. Whatever way you look at it, evolution is the opposite of Jesus' character.
May I recommend the writings of a very kind and extremely clever Christian man. A.E. Wilder-Smith earned 3 PhDs in biochemistry and was a scintillating (in a non Charo way!!) lecturer and preacher. Some Christian bookshops carry his books as a matter of course, and they are still in print, despite his death 5 years or so ago. His arguments against evolution are compelling with some very personal stories concerning the saving of children with disabilities from the Nazis during WWII.
There has been some very interesting research done in American universities about why young Christians lose their faith. Prime on the tally is the effect that evolution has on their faith. I would say that unlike you, intellectually that could not juggle the two, one had to give. This is sad and we, as Christians, must assist our weaker brothers and sisters in the faith. This is one reason why we at this blog are so strident (O.K. quite rude sometimes - that's Anglospeak!) about the issue.
John
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